Selling hot dogs to each other

When the big cat lady tells Frank she has a restaurant (where people come and eat and look at the cats), he tells her he has one too.

"Restaurant, hey. That's what I've got. Whole goddamn country lives selling hot dogs to each other."

That seemed like an astute observation about American capitalism during the Depression: people just selling junk back and forth.

Frank really had a few zingers, and you have to wonder, given the narrative frame, if he said/thought those things at the time or if they were born from the wisdom he seemed to acquire on death row and superimposed on the story.

The hustle

I thought the pool hustle was kind of revealing about Frank. If I read that correctly (tell me if I didn't), he set out to hustle a "rube," but instead got royally hustled himself. I kind of took that to mean he's (a) kind of naive/dumb, which doesn't really seem to fit his character; or (b) just not very good at being a "bad guy," maybe because his heart isn't in such a bad place?

Next pick

NPR reviewed this book, which they called a "short novel."

I've been wanting to read it ever since.

It clocks in at 208 pages, so hopefully that's nothing we can't handle. :)

What do you all think? Shall we aim for Jan. 15 to start discussing?

The title

I love the title, but I confess I had no idea what it meant. Cain's explanation (via Wikipedia) is this:

According to Cain, screenwriter Vincent Lawrence spoke of the anxiety he felt when waiting for the postman to bring him news on a submitted manuscript. According to Cain, Lawrence noted that he would know when the postman had finally arrived because the postman always rang twice, and Cain then lit upon that phrase as a title for his novel. Upon discussing it further, the two men agreed such a phrase was metaphorically suited to Frank's situation at the end of the novel.

With the "postman" being God, or Fate, the "delivery" meant for Frank was his own death as just retribution for murdering Nick. Frank had missed the first "ring" when he initially got away with that killing. However, the postman rang again, and this time the ring was heard, when Frank was wrongly convicted of having murdered Cora, and then sentenced to die for the crime. The theme of an inescapable fate is further underscored in the novel by The Greek's escape from death in the lovers' first murder attempt, only to be done in by their second one.

In his biography of Cain, author Roy Hoopes also recounted the conversation between Cain and Lawrence that gave birth to the novel's title. Hoopes' account of their conversation is similar to Cain's, but offered extended detail regarding Lawrence's comments. Specifically, in Hoopes's telling, Lawrence did not say simply that the postman always rang twice, but rather said that at times, he was so anxious awaiting the postman's delivery that he'd go into his backyard intentionally trying to avoid hearing the postman's ring. However, Lawrence continued, this tactic inevitably failed because if the postman's first ring was not noticed, he would always ring again, and, even from the backyard, that second ring would inevitably be heard.

In the 1946 film adaptation of the novel, Frank explicitly explains the title in the terms offered by Hoopes' biography of Cain.

A suitable title? Anything to add?

The Establishment

Who seemed more morally bankrupt to you, the lawyers/police/insurance companies or Frank and Cora?

Frank as narrator

Frank's voice as narrator is obviously what gave the book its personality. What did you think of the narrative voice? And, for that matter, the lately revealed device of telling the story from death row? Could you imagine the story being written from any other point of view?

( I always find it interesting how first-person narration tends to make you sympathetic to characters you would otherwise dislike. You sort of become their emotional accomplice, and rarely do you think, "Oh wait, I'm just being manipulated and mistreated, too!")

One of the best?

"Postman" is included in the Modern Library's 100 Best Novels list. It's No. 98. I'm always extremely dubious about these lists because taste in literature is so subjective, even among literary historians/experts. The silliness of such rankings aside, can you see a case for "Postman" being regarded as an exceptionally important work of fiction?

The Greek

What about Nick? Did you like him/feel for him? Do you think the horribly racist stuff Frank and Cora said about him was just supposed to be "typical of the time" or did you get the feeling it was supposed to reflect especially poorly on Frank's and Cora's characters?

Frank and Cora

What did you think of Frank and Cora's relationship? Did you want them to get away with it and live happily ever after, or did you want them to fall apart and get caught?

Those darn cats!

What did you make of all the cat imagery? Cora is called a "hell-cat." The house cat shorts out the electricity, and there are the big cats at the end that play a part in sealing Frank's doom.

Postman — Intense?

Wow. What did you think? Was "Postman" a page-turner for you or did you find the plot implausible?

The end

Was Hadji Murad a hero? Was he ultimately foolish in his attempt to escape the Russians and rescue his family?

Other Tolstoy?

Have you read anything else by Tolstoy? I read "Anna Karenina" a long time ago. I remember liking it. My volume containing "Hadji Murad" has a bunch of Tolstoy's other short fiction, so I started reading "The Death of Ivan Ilyich," which is fascinating. This might be the momentum I need to finally tackle "War and Peace."

Stronger than hate

This passage after the destruction of the Chechen village really struck me:

No one spoke of hatred for the Russians. The feeling experienced by all the Chechens, from the youngest to the oldest, was stronger than hate. It was not hatred, for they did not regard those Russian dogs as human beings; but it was repulsion, disgust, and perplexity at the senseless cruelty of these creatures, that the desire to exterminate them — like the desire to exterminate rats, poisonous spiders, or wolves — was as natural an instinct as that of self-preservation.

You almost can't help thinking about current conflicts, like the Palestinians and Israel, or the American war on terror.

The Russians

What did you think of Tolstoy's portrayal of the Russians, in general? Do you think it's odd considering that Tolstoy himself fought on their side in the Caucasus?

Hadji Murad

What kind of person was Hadji Murad? Tolstoy painted a fairly sympathetic portrait, I think, of a man devoted to God and his family, and yet Murad was unquestionably also a violent killer.

Kim's pick

I've been wanting to read this and was happy to discover that it's novella length! Does Dec. 10 work for everyone?

Murder?

Did you have a sense behind Gillian's final actions at the Harrow household -- drugged accident? Justifiable homicide? Plain old murder? What did Gillian think she did?

The haircut

Why did Gillian cut her hair -- did she need some ruse to get back into the Harrow household? Did it symbolize her femininity or independence in some regard? Related, I think: Why the heck did she want back in once she discovered what the Harrows wanted with her?

Paris

What's the Paris connection? The book opens there, at the Louvre with Gillian looking at British Columbian totem poles, and ends there, with Gillian and her college friend (Dominique? what is that relationship now?). One of Gillian's first clues that her relationship with Dorcas and Andre wasn't what she thought it was, was when she discovered that she was not invited to join them in Paris but had to look after their house and beastly parrot instead. And Dorcas is French. Does Gillian's being in France all those years later simply remind her of the events with them, or is there a deeper French connection?

D.H. Lawrence

So Andre was a champion of D.H. Lawrence. I'm afraid I've read very little by this author -- "Women in Love." And a short story. Does that add anything to his character for you? I think all I could take was that idea of the untroubled pursuit of physical pleasure, but warped in Andre and Dorcas' beastly ways.

The fires

Did you get the sense that Gillian was responsible for all of the fires, or maybe it was another student? I don't think the book was supposed to be conclusive, but I'm curious if you ferreted out more clues than I did.

Cassoulet

From the ever-trusty Wikipedia: "Cassoulet is a rich, slow-cooked bean stew or casserole originating in the south of France, containing meat (typically pork sausages, pork, goose, duck and sometimes mutton), pork skin (couennes) and white haricot beans." Sounds very rich, very '70s, and very suitable for hiding mind-altering drugs ...

Philomela

I haven't read Ovid's "Metamorphoses" but assumed it was no coincidence that Andre nicknamed Gillian Philomela when their relationship eventually ran such a strong parallel to the story.

Beastly behavior

"We are beasts, and this is our consolation."
What is this supposed to mean? Why would Dorcas be prized as some sort of outrageous feminist when for her sexual gratification -- or profit? -- or art? -- she would be party to drugging and photographing young women?

A triangle

"If you love a married man you exist in a special, secret, undeclared relationship with his wife."
I thought it wa interesting that though Gillian's love interest was in Andre Harrow, the book opens with her recalling Dorcas' art, with her following Dorcas to the post office, that once she consummates her relationship with Andre, Dorcas seems to take over.

So '70s

What did setting "Beasts" in 1975 do for the story? I think it added a lot of interesting elements about feminism and sexuality. I think about the impact of Gillian's parents' divorce had on her psyche, about continued perceptions of virginity and good/bad girls, of environments where a professor can bed his student while dismissing her "schoolgirl poetry." In short I guess I think of trying to set this story in modern times, and I fail. It had to be this era to work. What did you think?

Next pick

"Hadji Murad" by Leo Tolstoy

Setting

I loved how the setting in "The Snow Goose" becomes almost like a character in the story. In the introduction, the marshlands are described:

"Grays and blues and soft greens are the colors, for when the skies are dark in the long winters, the many waters of the beaches and marshes reflect the cold and somber color. But sometimes, with sunrise and sunset, sky and land are aflame with red and golden fire."

We also learn how the sea "spreads its rippled blanket" over the site, and how Rhayader paints the "loneliness and the smell of the salt-laden cold, the eternity and agelessness of marshes, the wild, living creatures, dawn flights, and frightened things taking to the air, and winged shadows at night hiding from the moon."

How did the setting influence your reading of the story?

October: "Beasts"

How fitting that I get to pick our next selection during the month of Halloween!

Reviewed on Amazon.com:

"Set in an apparently idyllic New England college town, Beasts is the story of Gillian Brauer, a student who falls in love with her professor, his Bohemian lifestyle, and anti-establishment attitudes, and what happens when she falls under his spell.

Knowing that other girls preceded her does not deter Gillian from becoming part of the household of Professor Harrow and his larger-than-life wife, Dorcas, the outrageous sculptress of shocking wooden totems. Drawn into their life, Gillian soon becomes a helpless pawn, a victim of her own passions and those of her mentors. Or does she? Sometimes even the most seemingly powerless prey can surprise a predator."

Not mentioned in the review: The undead. And arson. Yay! How about Oct. 10?

'Her own free will'

What did you think of the imagery of birds throughout this short story - and do you see any connections to Frith?

"She'll stay. She will never go away again. The Lost Princess is lost no more. This is her home now - of her own free will."

The interesting thing was that when Philip Rhayader said this, the parallel is between the snow goose and Frith ... but during the evacuation at Dunkirk, and afterward, the snow goose is seen as "the soul of Rhayader taking farewell of her before departing forever." Why do you think the snow goose is so important to this tale?

Main character?

I just wanted to get the ball rolling on "The Snow Goose." What did you think of it, and who do you think is the main character? Philip Rhayader, Frith or the snow goose (aka La Princesse Perdue)?

Starting 'Snow Goose'

I was thinking we could start discussing 'Snow Goose' on Sept. 4. Has everyone had a chance to get it?

The struggle

Why do you think Irene repeatedly broke her firm resolutions to not see Clare? Even before she suspected an affair, her emotions for Clare were intense and ambivalent. Her instinct was to nip the relationship in the bud, but a stronger instinct to let the pushy Clare in prevailed. I never quite understood why she couldn't stick to her decision to not see her. Thoughts?

Gertrude

Gertrude was also "passing" but with the crucial difference that her husband knew. Why do you think Larsen included this character, and did you find her portrayal sympathetic? Why, to his face at least, did Gertrude adopt a different tone with Bellew than Irene did? Did the fact that Gertrude was more working class than high society matter for any reason?

The Snow Goose: A Story of Dunkirk

The open window

I think the ending was deliberately an unknowable mystery: Did Clare fall or jump or was she nudged out the window by Irene? (Mirroring the unknowability regarding the affair. Was it real or not?)

Irene certainly exhibited signs of a guilty conscience, but it wasn't clear whether she felt guilt over an act or guilt over a thought. As she herself noted, it was better for Clare to disappear than to be divorced by her awful husband, which would free her up for Brian. Her exit out the window, however caused, was presumably in Irene's best interest. Or was it?

Any thoughts on the way the final scene was handled?

(Completely irrelevant: There's a "Sex and the City" episode where an aging party girl falls out of a window at a Manhattan soiree, and it comes off as the end of a problem/end of an era sort of deal. Like no one really wanted this annoying has-been lurking on the scene anymore — she caused discomfort, as Clare did — and no one wanted her to die; they just wanted her out of the picture, as Irene did Clare. But this girl wasn't going to just quietly fade away; thus the writer's convenient open window.)

Clare

Clare seems like the most important character in the story. She's the one who's "passing," whose actions propel the narrative, and yet she's the one who, in a way, interested me the least. She just kind of seemed like a visitor to the real story, which, for me, was the dynamic between Irene and Brian. I had definite feelings about those two and about Mr. Bellew. But when it came to Clare, I just felt rather indifferent. I mean, I felt able to observe her with a clinical interest, but without much emotion. What did you think? Is she someone we were supposed to mostly like, or not like, or were we to have something akin to Irene's ambiguous feelings toward her?

Did you want Clare to get "caught"?

The next generation

Brian and Irene had radically different views about how to teach their children about racism. She was all for hiding ugliness and the truth from them so that they could enjoy their childhoods, and he was all for laying it on the line so that they didn't grow up with illusions and would be prepared for the inevitable. Any thoughts on that discussion?

Brian

I didn't always enjoy the way Irene treated him, as I've noted, but I REALLY didn't enjoy the way he treated her. His tone always seemed mockingly respectful (like when he referred to her to his son as "the ladies in the house") and tinged with sarcasm or passive-aggression. I never got the feeling that he actually loved and honored his wife. Do you think the author intended for us to like him?

Was she trying to draw any specific comparisons between the husbands in the story?

Irene

We have the story from Irene's point of view. Did you like her?

I had a lot of sympathy for her, which veered into pity when it became apparent how desperate she was to keep her marriage intact, to the point that she would, if necessary, endure a mere "shell" of a marriage so long as it appeared normal and whole to the outside world. Any thoughts on why this appearance was so paramount to her?

My sympathy for her also took a hit when it became apparent how determined she was to squelch her husband's South American dreams. I could see why she wouldn't be keen on the idea, and I admired her for claiming her citizenship so ardently and refusing to be chased out of her own country to supposedly greener pastures (at least in regard to race relations), but she was just so uncompromising and rigid (and unadventurous, I would add) about it. It's like she didn't really care about how miserable he might be so long as he didn't openly manifest his misery in a way that upset her nicely ordered life. I'm not saying she should have abandoned her own dreams to follow her man! But it seems like she could have handled the conflict in a less manipulative, more empathetic way. What do you think?

Also, do you think the differences in their skin color greatly affected their outlooks? Irene considered herself black and valued her heritage, but she also was routinely mistaken for white when she was out in public, so maybe she didn't feel the brutality of racism in the same personal way that her darker husband did?

An affair in "Passing"

Did you think that Clare and Brian were actually having an affair? Or was Irene getting all worked up over figments of her imagination?

The search

Why do you think the narrator/Wolfe went back to the house where Grover died? Do you think the pilgrimage helped him?

Kim's next pick: "Passing"

I've been wanting to read this for some time. It's by Harlem Renaissance writer Nella Larsen, with whom I'm completely unfamiliar. I bought her complete works (only 300 pages) from Amazon, but you can also get "Passing" as a stand-alone book.

This intrigued me on Wikipedia: Recently, Passing has received renewed attention because of its close examination of racial and sexual ambiguities and liminal spaces. It has achieved canonical status in many American universities.

On the train

I found the mother rather amusing, especially in her insistence to reporters that her author son was not remarkable among her children and in fact was not even her brightest son. It was somewhat of a disappointment to me when her example of Grover's exceptional maturity and intelligence was his refusal to allow a black man to ride on their train car in Indiana. What were your thoughts?

The Square and Time

The first part was such a vivid portrait of the town square of Grover's childhood. What do you think this part told us about Grover?

What did you make of his sort of mantra, "this is Time," "this is the Square," "this is Grover"?

The Lost Boy

What did you all think? It was a little different, huh?

Next pick

"The Lost Boy" by Thomas Wolfe

War

The war obviously had a great impact on Tom's mental and physical health ... I can't decide to what extent it affected his faith or belief in God.

J.G. Keach

Monster! A monster in cloth!

Right ...?

Tom and Alice

(KC, I'll try not to call her Miranda, the new name I gave her post-Tom's "Botticelli" reference.)

At times Tom called Alice the love of his life, but he suggested that he never thought of her as more than a beautiful woman to observe until Moon inquired how they were getting on. Did you have any trouble visualizing or understanding this relationship?

Settings and characters

Something that struck me about the story is how much detail the author gives on the setting and features, especially the countryside, but also the church and the belfry, the mural, of course, but less-vivid descriptions were given for the characters. (I think more pages were given to the description of Birkin's roommate, the magnificent stove, then of Alice.) Would you agree with that? Do you suppose that was the author's stronger side or a deliberate effect for the character Tom?

The mural

I found myself as excited as Tom about the eventual uncovering of the mural, learning about the types of materials used, and which subjects merited the most expensive stuff, and the artist's techniques and who he deemed worthy of his best work (the sinners) and not so much the others (the saved). What an interesting piece of history!

Food

I was interested on the emphasis of food in this novel. Tom Birkin went into a lot of social situations where the company was sweetened by the promise of any or all food -- the morning tea with Moon, Sunday meals with the Ellerbecks, then feeling obliged to preach for Mr. Ellerbeck as a thank-you for all that hospitality. I can't imagine what it would be like to eat so little (bread, vegetables, occasional meat) and not know for sure where your next meal is coming from.

For starters ...

"A Month in the Country": Idyllic but a little earthier than I expected? What were your initial impressions?

Next discussion

Hi, guys. I realized the first week of May is slipping away ... how about I start posting questions for "Month in the Country" on May 10?

A hands-on drinking activity

The book mentions quinine, which was one of the first treatments against malaria. Have any of you tasted quinine? I didn't know much about it until I was introduced to it through tonic water, which should be available in your local grocery store.

If you like fizzy drinks, you will probably like this one. (You might want to make sure that they've sweetened it, though!)

Relationships

What did you think of Mr Lever's relationship with his wife, Emily?

No idea of time

"Chief say no white man been here long time."
"How long?"
"Chief say not since he pay hut tax."
"How long's that?"
"Long long time."

(!!)

It says in the story that Mr Lever had difficulty getting any notion of time from his African companions. I once read in a book describing intercultural relations that if you ask Africans how far you are from any destination, they'll say, "Not far," even if you're miles away because they don't want to discourage you. One of my favorite African phrases: "I give the truth scope!"

Even in their own families, I noticed this tendency to avoid quantifying things. A girl was told by her aunt to prepare lunch for expected guests; the girl wanted to know how much food to prepare. "Just 'enough' food," the girl was told. So she stood over a pot of boiling water, throwing pasta in; she would pause, break off a few noodles, stir the pot, then break off a few more noodles.

"How much are you making?" said one of her friends.
"I don't know; we're to make enough."
"But what is enough?"
"I don't know! Enough!" she repeated, as if that explained everything.

Enough, I mused afterward, to make everyone that much more confused...

"Strict attention"

I almost laughed when I read this passage: "He sat in a circle of light carefully observed. The blacks squatted outside their huts and watched him; they were friendly, interested, amused, but their strict attention irritated Mr. Lever. ... He couldn't touch his pocket without a craning of necks."

This mirrored my own experience in Africa almost exactly! Especially in rural areas, children stop to stare, point, and ogle one's every move. It fascinated me how open even the adults were about it, too - it's not at all like the European way of averting one's glance.

How do you cope with "strict attention"? Does it irritate you like Mr. Lever? Or do you just stare back?

Financially challenged

We learn that Mr. Lever was 10 years retired when he lost his money in the Depression and isn't the hottest job candidate available: "He had been a good traveler, he had made money for many people, his references were excellent, but the world had moved on since his day."

How do you see this in light of today, where more would-be retirees are joining the work force now that 401(k)s have plunged? Are their prospects worse than, the same as, or better than Mr. Lever's?

Christy's pick for May

"A Month in the Country," by J.L. Carr, was nominated for a Booker Prize in 1980. Looks dreamy and springlike to me.

Was there ever a chance?

When you finished the end of "A Chance for Mr. Lever," were you satisfied with the overall direction and resolution? Was this really a chance for Mr. Lever? Why or why not?

Narration

What did you think of the narration? "Franny" appears to be told by a straightforward third-person narrator who's not personally involved in the action. "Zooey," we learn at the beginning, is narrated by Buddy. Thoughts?

Next read

Has anyone read Graham Greene's "A Chance for Mr. Lever"? It's usually in collections of his short stories (one edition is featured on the left). If no one objects, it can be our next book read ...

Fatty

What did you think of Bessie?!

My eyes lit up every time she walked into the room.

I love how she's described as a "refreshing eyesore" among Manhattan matrons, who are always dressing up to go shopping at Saks. Bessie, by contrast, looks as if she never leaves the building at all. She putters around in her ancient kimono with the added-on pockets, containing "two or three packs of cigarettes, several match folders, a screwdriver, a claw-end hammer. a Boy Scout knife that had once belonged to one of her sons, and an enamel faucet handle or two, plus an assortment of screws, nails, hinges, and ball-bearing casters — all of which tended to make Mrs. Glass chink faintly as she moved about in her large apartment." Isn't that spectacular?

Did you even wonder why they were having the apartment repainted to begin with? Can you imagine Bessie, that old Vaudevillian, ever getting dressed and entertaining company? Did anyone ever visit? Still, there's something endearing about the way she pads from room to room all day trying to keep things going, battling clutter, worrying about the bath mat, trying to fix things, from the enamel on Zooey's teeth to Franny's mental state (as if there's not really much difference between the two chores).

One of my favorite moments in the book is when she tells Zooey, "Oh, I'd like to put a diaper on that mouth of yours!"

What do you think she added to the book? What was her role?

Franny's state of mind

This is kind of a crazy observation. But I happened on Kurt Cobain's suicide note. There was a link to it in a story I was reading online. And some of the wording — the stuff about empathy and pity and sadness — reminded me so much of some of the stuff going on in "Franny and Zooey," especially the stuff about being too sensitive. I guess the received wisdom was that Cobain was just terribly depressed.

Is Franny just terribly depressed?

The letters

Near the beginning of each story there's a letter that a character is seen re-reading. In "Franny," it's the letter from Franny to Lane, which he takes out of his pocket and reads again while he's waiting for her train. In "Zooey," Zooey is in the bathtub re-reading (for the umpteenth time) the letter from Buddy. What do you make of this parallel structure?

Zooey

Raise your hand if you just wanted him to STOP TALKING.

Tina

What did you think of her?

The men

We barely see any of the men in the story (Clem Spender, Jim Ralston, Joe Ralston, Lanning Halsey). We only hear about their characters through the women. Why do you think Wharton chose to keep them in the shadows?

After the wedding

This section really struck me:

“Yes—and afterward?

Well—what? and what did this new question mean? Afterward: why, of course, there was the startled puzzled surrender to the incomprehensible exigencies of the young man to whom one had at most yielded a rosy cheek in return for an engagement ring; there was the large double-bed; the terror of seeing him shaving calmly the next morning, in his shirt-sleeves, through the dressing room door; the evasions, insinuations, resigned smiles and Bible texts of one's Mamma; the reminder of the phrase "to obey" in the glittering blur of the Marriage Service; a week or a month of flushed distress, confusion, embarrassed pleasure; then the growth of habit, the insiduous lulling of the matter-of course, the dreamless double slumbers in the big white bed, the early morning discussions and consultations through that dressing room door which had once seemed to open into a fiery pit scorching the brow of innocence.”

Any thoughts on Wharton's depiction of marriage, sex, passion?

Delia vs. Charlotte

Though there is obviously love and friendship, there is also great competition and resentment between Delia and Charlotte. What are your thoughts on their relationship? Did you find yourself sympathizing more with one more than the other?

"The Old Maid"

OMG, it was so good! Right?

I mean, uh, did you like it? First impressions? (You are free to express your own opinion, but just so you know, it was really good.)

Kim's pick

In honor of the great J.D. Salinger, who just died.

(Note: It exceeds 150 pages, but not by much, and I would request an exception under the circumstances, if it's OK with everyone!)

For March 1?